Volley
[edited to reflect the fact that Aaron's post no longer has two threes]
Go here then come back, if you're trying to keep up. The numbers I'm using this time correspond to his points I'm responding to.
1. "In the middle of a rant I used a description which while oversimplified was nonetheless an accurate description of how I understood Ian's point. Not that it was an accurate description of his point. I think there's an important difference there." And that's a distinction both Aaron and myself are aware of, but everyone else might not be, at least in this case.
2. "Perhaps I'm misunderstanding him and hearing 'nobody requires love* for a complete and happy life' when what he's actually saying is 'I don't.' Is that it?" Nope. I'm saying nobody does. I'm also not denying the validity of individual emotions. I'm not questioning in any way the way most people feel about being single. I'm saying that it would be possible for these people to feel differently. That's also (among other reasons) why it's "need" not "want" in my formulation. I've never said everyone can get along fine being alone the way most people approach things, I'm saying that it's not essential to being a human being to feel that way if you're single. There are other ways. Everyone, with enough will and the proper resources, can use them (and I'm not trying to slight those who don't, for whicheve reason). It seems kind of absurd to say that this is denying the validity of emotions. I am in a way denying the truth of some of them**. To make the claim that the way we feel about things is the way they really are, all the time, seems a lot more absurd to me. Not that I'm holding Aaron to that position, but if you don't take that stance (which seems to me to be disproved by human feelings every minute of any day) I don't see how mine implies a contradiction. I'm merely adding this feeling of uncompleteness and despair when single into the group of feelings I don't feel reflect the way things really are. Doesn't mean they're not real. Doesn't mean they're not powerful. Doesn't mean you can stop feeling them, at least not just like that.
Another way to think of it is that I'm saying being lonely, or sad, or what have you is not an essential quality of being single. And not just for some lucky people, for everyone. Does that mean that they don't often accompany being lonely? Of course not. Does that mean it's somehow "wrong" to feel those ways? Of course not. What it means is that you don't have to feel like that, although I think some people will never be able to extricate themselves. Personally, once I realised that this is what I believed (I was single at the time, by the way) it was very freeing and it helped me put those feelings into proper perspective. But it's not really something you can just tell other people about and then they believe it. All they can do, if they're interested, is keep working at it and some day it should become clear. I don't know whether it requires a full-fledged epipheny, but mine took the form of one.
4. Well, I think the question here is why is it embarrassing to admit it? I think that's something that's reinforced societally, though it's not just that, of course.
6. You didn't cause me offence last time either. And I like debating this sort of thing. Or anything really.
*remembering, of course, we mean one specific type of love here.
**quick refresher for anyone not in philosophy; a valid argument is one in which if each premise is true, the conclusion would be true. A true argument is a valid argument with truthful premises. That's not the distinction I'm making between valid and true here, but I think it feels similar.
Go here then come back, if you're trying to keep up. The numbers I'm using this time correspond to his points I'm responding to.
1. "In the middle of a rant I used a description which while oversimplified was nonetheless an accurate description of how I understood Ian's point. Not that it was an accurate description of his point. I think there's an important difference there." And that's a distinction both Aaron and myself are aware of, but everyone else might not be, at least in this case.
2. "Perhaps I'm misunderstanding him and hearing 'nobody requires love* for a complete and happy life' when what he's actually saying is 'I don't.' Is that it?" Nope. I'm saying nobody does. I'm also not denying the validity of individual emotions. I'm not questioning in any way the way most people feel about being single. I'm saying that it would be possible for these people to feel differently. That's also (among other reasons) why it's "need" not "want" in my formulation. I've never said everyone can get along fine being alone the way most people approach things, I'm saying that it's not essential to being a human being to feel that way if you're single. There are other ways. Everyone, with enough will and the proper resources, can use them (and I'm not trying to slight those who don't, for whicheve reason). It seems kind of absurd to say that this is denying the validity of emotions. I am in a way denying the truth of some of them**. To make the claim that the way we feel about things is the way they really are, all the time, seems a lot more absurd to me. Not that I'm holding Aaron to that position, but if you don't take that stance (which seems to me to be disproved by human feelings every minute of any day) I don't see how mine implies a contradiction. I'm merely adding this feeling of uncompleteness and despair when single into the group of feelings I don't feel reflect the way things really are. Doesn't mean they're not real. Doesn't mean they're not powerful. Doesn't mean you can stop feeling them, at least not just like that.
Another way to think of it is that I'm saying being lonely, or sad, or what have you is not an essential quality of being single. And not just for some lucky people, for everyone. Does that mean that they don't often accompany being lonely? Of course not. Does that mean it's somehow "wrong" to feel those ways? Of course not. What it means is that you don't have to feel like that, although I think some people will never be able to extricate themselves. Personally, once I realised that this is what I believed (I was single at the time, by the way) it was very freeing and it helped me put those feelings into proper perspective. But it's not really something you can just tell other people about and then they believe it. All they can do, if they're interested, is keep working at it and some day it should become clear. I don't know whether it requires a full-fledged epipheny, but mine took the form of one.
4. Well, I think the question here is why is it embarrassing to admit it? I think that's something that's reinforced societally, though it's not just that, of course.
6. You didn't cause me offence last time either. And I like debating this sort of thing. Or anything really.
*remembering, of course, we mean one specific type of love here.
**quick refresher for anyone not in philosophy; a valid argument is one in which if each premise is true, the conclusion would be true. A true argument is a valid argument with truthful premises. That's not the distinction I'm making between valid and true here, but I think it feels similar.
